Goodbye, Jake Boly: BarBend’s Fitness Editor Takes A Bow (Podcast)

We build upon these pillars with these differences we’re talking about. It’s like in the squat. You have your pillars for movement mechanics that everybody should try to accomplish and have, to some degree. Everybody should have some level of baseline strength.

Then how we get there? That’s when the fun part comes. That’s when the conceptual differences come. That’s when the applying this training methodology versus what you’ve done, blend together.

Welcome to the “BarBend Podcast,” where we talk to the smartest athletes, coaches, and minds from around the world of strength. I’m your host, David Thomas Tao, and this podcast is presented by barbend.com.

Today, I’m talking to Jake Boly, BarBend’s outgoing fitness editor. In nearly four years with BarBend, Jake has covered hundreds of strength sports events and written or edited thousands of articles on training and strength research. We look back on Jake’s time in and contributions towards strength journalism, including the athletes and feats that impressed him the most.

Also, I want to take a second to say we’re incredibly thankful that you listen to this podcast. If you haven’t already, be sure to leave a rating and review of the BarBend Podcast in your app of choice.

I’d also recommend subscribing to the BarBend Newsletter to stay up-to-date on all things strength. Just go to barbend.com/newsletter to start becoming the smartest person in your gym today. Now, let’s get to it.

Jake, this is not the first podcast we’ve done together, but it is the last with you as a full-time BarBend employee. I’m very thankful for my time working with you. I’m going to kick things right off. Let’s talk about what you’ve learned over the last four years of being in the fitness content space.

Oh, my goodness.

I’ll make it easier than that. Let’s start with this. What is the first thing that being a strength sports journalist taught you about the fitness space?

Which sport had the steepest learning curve for you where you were like, “I’m taking a little while to wrap my head around this”? Not that we’re ever stopping learning about the sports. Which one were you like, “This is a lot to take in”?

It’s the diversity of the sports in the sense that every sport has its unique voice and its unique energy to it. That was really cool because coming into it from the outside world, if you’re not really vested, covering and learning about the athletes who are invested in each sport, you just assume all strength sports believe the same.

They’re all similar. They all involve maximal weights, doing sling for time, or being a little bit more fit than your peers. It’s crazy when you finally get into the logistics of everything, and start working with some of these athletics on a regular basis, and really diving deep into their roots.

We’ve learned that and you learn that everybody has their unique voice. Similar to every other sport, like baseball is different than football in the energy they produce, similar to strength sports. A lot of folks who don’t necessarily spend a lot of time in that world overlook that. There are certainly some big differences between those sports. That was the first thing I learned.

Which sport had the steepest learning curve for you where you were like, “I’m taking a little while to wrap my head around this”? Not that we’re ever stopping learning about the sports. Which one were you like, “This is a lot to take in”?

I would say there’s two for different reasons. Strongman was tough to take in just because there’s such a varied nature of competitions and events. It can be a little bit tedious at times to follow the flow, especially with some of the sporadic coverage that you get from someone like the world’s strongest man.

Folks like that, the big broadcasters are there in their world. It was a little bit tough to wrap my head around the diversity of competition change regularly and to do events.

Also, weightlifting just from a logistics standpoint [laughs] and the intricacies of just attempt selection, what’s a world record with international and national, and so forth. The differences there, the variances there, and some of the other background stuff that happens in weightlifting make it a little bit more complex to cover especially when you’re just starting.

Obviously, I know how a weightlifting competition went. I knew how it was scored and everything else. Then we had the changing of the point system and everything else. That just added some layers of complexity to what would normally seem a pretty simple sport. “You do this lift. You do this lift,” not so much.

It seems simple in the middle of it. If you’re looking at in the context of one competition, you can understand weightlifting. When you look at it in the realm of international qualification — qualifying for the Tokyo Olympics — it’s super complex. Over the course of your time with BarBend, that’s completely shifted.

We did a 12-minute explainer video about how you qualify for the Olympics and weightlifting. I thought we were pretty thorough. I still got text messages after where people were just like, “Wait, what? Explain this to me again.”

Oh, my gosh. Don’t even get me started, especially on those rules changes that have happened over the last two years alone. Rulebook was just like we need a 100-page PDF to help everybody just to read through it. Not even just text, just images. Help us out in the most simple way possible.

I was like, “If you want the 100-page PDF, we have it.” The International Weightlifting Federation has rulebooks. USA Weightlifting has rulebooks. One thing that I really remember fondly from our time working together, and we should clarify. This is toward the end of your time working full-time with BarBend, the fitness community, the strength community, the small community.

It’s not like we’ll never talk again, but looking back at our time working together as colleagues, one fond memory is when we went to the 2017 Weightlifting World Championships in Anaheim, California which was a really fascinating competition.

It was at the Anaheim Convention Center, but we stayed at the Great Wolf Lodge with all the Christmas decorations. It was in December in California. It was just very strange for me. That was your first time at an international weightlifting competition. Is there anything that stuck out to you from that competition, any memories that you can just recall?

I have two. Number one is just realizing how massive some of the super heavyweights are. I don’t think you realize how big Lasha is, for example, until you actually are standing near and by Lasha. You’re like, “Holy-ish.” That’s how that man snatches 474 pounds over his head. You’re just a huge human being.

Also I noticed that it was a weird sense of camaraderie because everybody’s on the same page. Everybody obviously wants to do well, but then also they very much like you’re with your country. You’re focused on them, and you’re very much to yourself. Whereas at the Arnold or [indecipherable 7:08] , everyone’s slapping ass, grabbing hand. Like, “What’s going on, guys?”

At the World Championships, I know everybody’s dialed in obviously. Even after, it was very much you were there on a mission, and that is your mission. You’re go, go, go. Even after you’ve competed, you still have that mindset even though we would have been more loose obviously.

Maybe, I also have a biased view because when we saw it in the context of competition. Those were the two things I learned — big people and zeroed-in mindsets.

There was one instance when we were taking the bus from the Anaheim Convention Center. It was you, me, and every super heavyweight from the A Session in there. We were the smallest people on the bus. I felt everyone else was at least 100 kilos bigger than us, and that might have actually been the case. It was close to it.

I’m 99 percent sure they were looking at me like, “I will eat you.” I was like, “You guys got this.”

One thing I also really remember fondly from that time, and that was one of our first time, we traveled for work together before that, but that was our biggest trip we’ve taken together for BarBend thing at that point. One thing I remember really fondly was I had a moment where we’re literally eating breakfast one morning.

It’s you and me, we got our oatmeal, and our bacon, and our eggs. We’re sitting down, and I look around the room. There’s athletes from the Republic of Georgia and Iran. The German team might have been there, and then obviously, some American team members. China was out of that championships. They were serving a suspension.

It was part of the Canadian team as well, the Mexican team. It was such an interesting international mix, and from some countries where you’re not going to see people from those countries visiting the US under normal circumstances or, at least, generally not at the same volume you see tourists from other countries.

Definitely a fond memory for me. Just seeing those the meals of…You’d be in line with Lasha Talakhadze fighting over that one bottle of ketchup that they had for every athlete in the dining hall, crazy.

I remember that one morning where we were looking for the hot sauce. They had at their table. I was like, “Well, if I don’t come back in three minutes…Hey Sir, can I please have some hot sauce here. I won’t take much. You can have it right back.”

That was great. Some of those athletes are the people that you’ll probably never see again unless you are in Olympics or world champions. It’s crazy.

What are some events that you covered or involved in coverage? You role in BarBend, you’ve done a lot of things. We’re talking about strength sports right now. You produce and edited a ton of training content. Even separate from the sports, people just looking to get stronger.

How can we produce resources for those folks who might not be elite athletes or competitive and strength? We’ll talk about that in a second. Are there any events that come to mind, whether they be events covered in person or remotely that stick out to you as being particularly challenging from the perspective of a journalist?

Oh, 100 percent. I think the one that sticks out to me — and this is because I was there first hand — is always the Arnold Classic just because there’s so much going on.

I remember the first day I ever went to the Arnold Classic to cover it officially, I was so overwhelmed, but I learned the second day — I could say this now because I’m leaving — I got a little tipsy throughout the day and kept the buzz going. It made everything so much manageable.

I would go watch something, and then go write it down, have a beer. Go watch something. Go write it down. Have a beer. It made it a lot more manageable. I think that Arnold was probably the most crazy just because there’s so much stuff going on, and it’s literary impossible to see everything.

At the same time you’re trying to check social. Like, “Who lifted the cage? Who was in the platform? What’s going on in the Strongman right now?” I’m trying to keep all the tabs. I’m trying to relay that, either with my own work or with you guys back in the BarBend office.

Trying to like, “This is happening now. Keep an eye out. I’ll do this.” That was quite the challenge to do, but I managed.

The Arnold is something that if you hadn’t seen it in person, it’s difficult to describe. I’ve heard a lot of people say like, “Oh, man. I’ve never been to the Arnold. I really want to go, just watch everything.”

It’s definitely something that I think it’s worth seeing. Obviously, this is the time of coronavirus. We’re not really holding events like that with hundreds of thousands of people. It’s tough to describe the atmosphere at the Arnold. Busy doesn’t even begin to describe what it’s like.

Can you just give us a sense of it? For those who’ve never been to the Arnold Sports Festival, the feeling on the floor, there’s so much going around you. When it hits you, what is your first impression?

My first impression is like, “Where do I start?” You have so many things coming at you at once that I think it’s really hard to find where you’d want to go even if you have your own niche, even if you only want to talk to powerlifting brands, and see competition, powerlifting, and so forth.

It’s overwhelming that I can’t even figure out how to get to what, where to go because literally at some point, it’s like you’re in a Six Flags line that’s incredibly crowded. You physically can’t move sometimes. It’s chaos. It is just pure chaos.

Are there any event that you look back that you covered, again either remotely or in person, that surprised you? That shocked you? It could be the result. It could be an injury, someone pulling out or something like that where you were just like, “I did not see that coming,” when you were writing up a final report.

Competitions that are always in that nature, for me, like the CrossFit Games, those are always just ebbs and flows of highs and lows throughout the days, and that’s always fun to keep tabs on and stay consistent with.

Has anything ever really truly shocked me? I’m trying to think of big injuries that might have happened while I was really connected in, but I can’t think of any off the top my head. There are probably a couple instances over the last four years, but nothing stands out to me has been like, “Woah, I did not see that one coming.”

I think that’s pretty much it. Some stuff has shocked me but not so much in the competition side.

[laughs] Some of the little stuff that maybe happened in the warm-up room or off the platform, it can be a little bit more shocking. You’ve gotten to interview on the podcast. You’ve been a host on the podcast numerous times. You’ve interviewed people for articles, for videos. You’ve gotten to travel with some really cool athletes and coaches, people in strength.

Is there anyone that you got to work within any capacity at Barbend that you…Were there was a moment where you’re like, “Oh, my goodness. I’m working with this person. I never thought I’d have the opportunity to work with this close”?

Honestly, every big named athlete and coach that I’ve worked with, I always have those moments. As you do more of them in your career, they start to fade a little bit, I would want to say. A couple that stand out to me significantly when I podcast Eric Helms, he’s somebody I’ve looked up to for so long in the industry.

Being on the podcast with him…People like Dr. Andy Galpin too. Those guys are just incredibly brilliant.

To have a full one hour just have a conversation with them and know that conversation is not just being with us — actually having a purpose and intent behind it — that’s one of the coolest times when nervous before and then after like, “Holy crap. I just produce a piece of content that will hopefully help everyone else along with myself.’

It was super incredibly awesome to work for those who work with those guys.

The Eric Helms’ was a great example. That was pretty early on in the course of the Barbend podcast. For a time, it was our most successful podcast ever. I actually almost retired from podcasting.

I was like, “Jake, you take it over because this one’s just doing gangbusters.” It’s a testament to not only the fact that you all had a great engaging conversation which speaks to your ability to ask the right questions keep the conversation flowing. The fact that people like Dr. Andy Galpin, people like Eric Helms, have really engaged followings.

They have groups of people — I don’t want to hang on every word that sounds a little cultish — who are really truly interested in their perspective on pretty much everything under the sun in fitness and strength. It’s not necessarily who has the most Instagram followers. That won’t always equate to a podcast hit, an article hit, or a YouTube hit.

Those people who have followings that are super engaged. Sometimes, it surprises me. There are definitely sub-communities within strength that surprised me. Are there any sub-communities in strength that are more passionate or more engaged that you maybe were not expecting at first?

Good question. I’m always shocked by the level of knowledge that just your basic CrossFit folks have. Who even go to the gym, they only know so much about the athletes, coaches, and everything else within that sport. That’s really cool and unique.

I know a ton of power lifters, just recreational weightlifters who don’t necessarily keep up with the international athletes and what’s going on the sport. It seems CrossFit always does. I know it’s probably because it gets a little more centralized and maybe it’s not as granular across the globe.

It’s really cool that that sport…Even if you’re not that into it, but you know of it a little bit, you still know who Matt Frazier is. You still know who some of these big named athletes are. CrossFit is probably my best example for that.

It seems that you didn’t do any writing in the fitness community before you came to BarBend. You already had a pretty impressive writing resume. What have you learned about yourself as a writer over the course of your four years here?

First off, [laughs] sending a high-impressive resume before [indecipherable 17:34] misleading. I did somebody…

I was the one who looked at your resume. I’m remembering it fondly, so give me credit to that.

That’s true. One thing I’ve learned is to accept, and this is like a personal thing. I am not, by any means, the best writer. I am never going to write a beautiful novel. That is not what I’m good at.

What I’ve learned over the last four years that I can do really well is to take a little bit more of — let’s call them — complex or complicated subjects and synthesized them into a more digestible manner.

I could obviously be off the mark here, but I think I have a decent idea of how to do that pretty dang well. I’ve just learned that over the engagement. Feedback have gotten certain articles. The reinforcing of like, “Hey, this really didn’t make sense to me. Thank you for saying it this way. This helps me for…”

I don’t want to say dumbing it down because I think that puts it in a negative light, but simplifying it to an extent that is digestible for every person. At BarBend, we have such a diverse audience that I’ve learned how to try to write for everybody in an article.

It’s tough because the people who do follow, some of the research head folks, it’s hard to write for them and a true beginner at the same time. It’s nearly impossible to do on a topic. To be able to try to learn how to mold those two and create that bridge has been one of the biggest learning points I’ve had with my writing over the last four years.

Being able to do it now in a timely manner versus taking a couple of days to write an article, but being able to turn things out in a few hours and still have it not lose quality.

[laughs] That I feel should be stated that time doesn’t always equate to quality there with writing.

That’s definitely true. If I had more time I would have made it shorter. I think it’s a George Bernard Shaw quote or something. I’m not smart enough to remember that stuff.

I remember actually in one of your first interviews for the job at BarBend, a skill set that you mentioned you were really interested in developing was that of being an editor, something you hadn’t done a lot of.

I think back to literally almost four years ago you saying, “I want the opportunity to edit more.” You’ve gotten the opportunity. You’ve done a lot of editing at BarBend. You started as a staff writer, and you’ve been the training editor for a number of years now. What have you learned about yourself as an editor?

Man, that’s a great question. [sighs] I’ve learned, and I think an editor always goes through this. It’s to not over-extend into someone else’s work and trying to muffle their voice, not that that was ever an issue for me.

At times, when you’re editing for so many different topics, with so many different skill levels of writers, it can be a little bit tough to try to create a centralized means of how you always edit.

I’ve learned to adapt to how a writers’ voice is but then contextually edit for them. Some writers I know write great content for us that I work with. They know that they’re not the strongest writers, so they actually appreciate when I do more edits. On other writers who are a little bit more advanced — let’s call them the skilled writing — I know to not touch as much.

Being an editor, learning to write and work with so many different skill levels, I’ve learned to understand when to put the gas pedal on. When to make more edits versus leaning off and be like, “This is your voice. You can keep this. I understand what you mean here, but let’s just do this tiny little tweak,” versus, “This all needs to change, we need to rewrite this,” and so forth.

That’s been the biggest skill of editing for so many different people, especially on so many different topics. It’s always a contextual thing. Without taking every writer’s voice and subject into context, you lose a little bit of the quality that could be there with the writing.

That’s especially true in strength training and fitness in general where sometimes it’s not about finding the right idea. You can have three different opinions about something, and they’re all correct, which is a really weird thing about fitness, right?

Exactly. That’s really important to understand too. [laughs] It’s always having that beginner mindset that is willing to listen to every rationale on a topic and then make sense of it in the sense of what you’ve seen, experienced, and then how you contextualize that to your life.

That’s exactly the point you made that with fitness-writing specifically, it’s hard because again to write for so many different eyeballs and then to also try to contextualize that, “Hey. There are multiple ways to squat. There are multiple ways to do this.” That just adds so many levels that a lot of people don’t think about.

We’re just overlooked especially just being up here looking in. It’s like, “Just write a back squat guide, that’s easy.”

Is it though because now you have to write for people who have so many different needs and wants and so many different levels of understanding, that how you mold that into one digestible piece of content is a lot more complex than people make fitness out to be. I don’t think people give fitness writing the way to deserve the times for certain topics.

That’s complexities. We were biased. We’re in network. We’re producing this content. We’re piecing it together and a lot of it together. We’re a little biased there. That was a bit of a leading question, but I get to ask that. I’m hosting this episode. It’s fun.

An important question, I know all your followers on social, all of your fans are asking, and now that you’re on your way out, you’re no longer going to be our full-time training editor. I can get your honest take on this. Sumo deadlifts, is it cheating, bro? Come on.

It depends. If I’m in competition, using it to pull a PR. If I’m not, then it’s totally cheating. No, I am kidding. No, of course not. I know you’re just trying to tee me up and fire me up right now. I’m not going to take the bait. No, Sumo is not cheating.

Do I think they should be scored differently? That’s a bigger conversation that should be had on deeper levels, on weight classes, and Federations, and so forth. We’ll have time to dive into that. No, I don’t think cheating. [inaudible 24:06] .

I want to go a little bit broader here on the next topic. That’s just more about the fitness and strength training industry in general. In BarBend, we have this dual role. It started as a news site for strength sports. Then we quickly realized there was a desire and interest in us producing training content, nutrition content.

We do both where we recover strength sports. We also cover strength training as it relates to people who might be novices or just looking to live healthier lifestyles. What do you think has changed the most, or most perceptively in your mind, about the world of strength training in the past four years? Not necessarily strength sports.

Big question. People are finally shifting to a look-at-something-and-then-ask-more-questions mindset as opposed to just taking everything for what it’s worth. As the industry continues to evolve and more, more knowledgeable coaches are starting to come up to the surface, that might not have had that reach before because they’re not as marketable.

People are finally starting to be like, “Hold on. Is that actually the case, or should we investigate this deeper and ask bigger questions.”

Over the last four years, that’s been something that, maybe it’s just a personal thing I’m going through. I’m definitely noticing more of a shift into a more understanding mindset of being multiple ways to approach a topic versus, “This website is big, and they’re called the authority. I’m just going to take everything they say from what it is, and that is fact.”

We’re finally moving away from that in the sense of even intermediate lifters are trying to be like. “I don’t know if that’s true because I’m not seeing these three opinions. I’m synthesizing that to conclude with my own opinion. I don’t know if that’s correct, or that’s correct. I’m going to keep asking more questions and investigating and learning.”

It’s really cool because we’re seeing now a blend of the pendulum. There was a pendulum on the Bro Science, and then we went to research heavy. We’re coming right back into the middle where more and more people are able to blend that and synthesize it. Obviously, research is not real life in a lot of settings. A lot of populations are not who you and I are.

At the same time, what they’re investigating can be applicable to what we’re doing. Now, how do we contextualize what the research is saying here versus what we’re experiencing in real life, and then blend those two to make smarter decisions? That, as a whole, is where the strength industry is starting to head more and more to.

It’s almost like content, and coaches, and everything are leveling up. That’s what I wrote in a post the other day about, there’s no more low-bar to entry in the fitness world. You cannot just have a certification and come in, and be a knowledgeable source.

You have to continually evolve and stay up-to-date with everything that’s changing from both, a coaching standpoint, the research standpoint, and the blending those two together. The Industry as a whole…To sum all this up, I’m just rambling at this point.

It’s is heading in a direction that is being a lot better at synthesizing multiple sources and then asking better questions to find answers that are actually applicable to one’s individual’s life. Does that make sense? I rambled for 10 minutes.

I like the pendulum example. There’s something that’s purely anecdotal on one end. On the other end, it’s purely databased. For fitness, because it is so individualized, everyone’s body is different. Everyone has different physiological responses. Everyone has different mental states going into training and evolving through their training.

At a certain point, finding what’s right for you is a synthesis between, “What’s the science say?” also, “What am I feeling? What am I responding to on an anecdotal state?” It’s OK to be a little bit anecdotal because we can have a research study done with a population sample size N equals X or whatever.

That’s cool and all, but ultimately, there are no studies done on Jake Boly’s response to bar positioning in the back squat. Your experience and what is going to keep you enjoying your training, getting stronger, training safely, and feeling good should ultimately factor in and be in conversation with what you know to be true from study populations.

I think that’s a really good way of putting it. I think it’s something that…Again, I’m biased. You’ve done a remarkable job at balancing in your job as a writer and an editor. Something that in the next phase of your career and in fitness and strength, I’m excited to see. It’s a really good example. I might steal that for an infographic, the Jake Boly pendulum.

Another thing BarBend has taught me is…It’s taught me how to identify that pendulum because it’s in every industry. Let’s just call out some examples in the fitness world. We swing one way. Let’s say you use foam rollers as an example. Everybody was all about foam rollers. Then you’d have some people who were like, “F those. Those things are stupid. They’re pointless”

Then the pendulum swings all the way back here to where people are like, “Oh, foam rollers. They’re stupid. They’re a waste of money.” Now we’re finally coming back again in the middle where people are like, “OK, there are some uses, but some of the claims are a little bit out there. Those are not always true. However, you can find uses here. Here’s some contextual ways to use it,” and so forth.

BarBend has taught me, I think, especially being a news outlet first, and then my training and nutrition coverage, I don’t want to say second, but being all equal priorities. It’s taught me to walk that middle line. That’s how I approach coaching too. It’s like, “OK, perfect world, real life, how do we meet in the middle?” It’s the pendulum shift.

In the perfect world, I could train for three hours a day. I’ll sleep nine hours. I’ll recover to my best abilities, but in the real-world, I’m sleeping four hours. I’m stressed as shit. I have an hour to train.

How do I meet the best of this part and the best of this part, meet them in the middle, avoid getting on any one side of the pendulum, and creating any form of dogmatic view or bias towards any one topic?

I think we should all have our pillars that we stand by and we use to create a foundation with. Then we build upon those pillars with these differences we’re talking about. It’s like in the squat. You have your pillars for movement mechanics that everybody should try to accomplish and have to some degree. Everybody should have some level of baseline strength.

How we get there? That’s when the fun part comes. That’s when the conceptual differences come. That’s when the applying this training methodology versus what you’ve done, blend together.

I love it. That gets me pumped in. These are the conversations and the energy that…Not to get too sappy here at the end, Jake, but I’m going to miss that energy. Every day coming in and seeing your passion for everything from the back pro topics and strength training, to the minutia of squat mechanics based on individual biometrics.

It all gets you excited. I think it’s an infectious energy. Something that has really shaped our brand, has shaped how I approach my job day to day, and something that I know you’re going to carry through your career in fitness and strength.

I’m really excited to see where that takes you. Also, I’m really thankful because I think that your voice is one that the communities online and that the industry, in general, will really benefit from. On behalf of BarBend, which I get to say, thank you so much for an amazing, almost, four years. Let’s round up, call it four years. Best of luck on your next ventures, Jake.

Thank you so much. Honestly, to shadow that I could not be more grateful for the opportunity of BarBend. Over the last four years, I’ve definitely have lived out some of the dreams that I’ve always had. I know a lot of people don’t know the background here, but one of my dreams growing up was to be a fitness editor in New York City.

To be able to do that for four years and meet the athletes and coaches I have. To be able to really invest energy into learning how to write, build my coaching mindset and build a site from, obviously not nothing, but from a lower traffic to where we’re at now.

It’s been such a whirlwind experience. I am always grateful that you and I stumbled upon each other bad photo shoot, in what was it September 2016? That was so long ago.

It’s been a whirlwind. I think I’m still numb to the fact that I’m leaving BarBend to pursue something else. It’s been a journey, and I could never give yourself and Nick, our nutrition editor, enough thanks for everything.

You always have family here and we’re super appreciative. Like I said, it’s a small industry. That’s one thing I will say to anyone in the fitness space.

“Don’t burn bridges because you end up working with the same people and crossing paths again because the community, it seems real big, but it’s actually pretty small. What you really want to do is just to keep your network full of really smart, passionate people, who honestly have the industry in mind. Who want to just do good things for people who are looking to get stronger.”

Jake Boly, you’re the prime example of that. I’m fortunate to fortunate to know you. Thanks so much for joining us. This has been a very special recording of the BarBend Podcast, a very bittersweet one, but just another thing I’m very thankful for. Appreciate it, Jake.

Thank you. To everybody who’s ever read anything or listened to anything I’ve done with BarBend, thank you as always. I really appreciate it and for your time and energy. Thank you so much for everything for having me.