Jordan Shallow and Pat Davidson: Answer Powerlifting, Fitness, and Sports Questions

Dr. Pat Davidson and Jordan Shallow are both at the front of the pack leading the fitness industry and building better standards. Dr. Davidson has a PhD in exercise physiology and is an accomplished strength & conditioning coach and author, while Dr. Shallow is a chiropractor, strength coach, and traveling presenter. Both of these individuals have brilliant minds when looking at and assessing basic and advanced training concepts and programs.  

In today’s episode, I take commonly asked questions that we receive on BarBend Instagram posts, articles, and YouTube videos and then have Dr. Davidson and Shallow answer them with free control. This is an incredibly fun episode that covers a variety of training topics and I hope you enjoy it!

In this episode of The BarBend Podcast, guest Jordan Shallow and Pat Davidson and guest host Jake Boly discuss:

  • Do you think sumo deadlift should be judged in a different category at meets? Why or why not? (1:11)
  • Do you think sumo deadlifts are easier than conventional deadlifts? (3:15)
  • Do you ever employ post-activation potentiation in your programs? Why or why not? (6:00)
  • What are your favorite exercises for targeting the vastus lateralis? (13:31)
  • Is the hip thrust overrated or underrated? (20:45)
  • When working through main compound exercises for the day, should you do nothing in-between sets or is some inter-set okay? (22:45)
  • What are your favorite three exercises for training in the transverse plane of motion? (33:06)
  • What is your favorite tool or exercise for fixing severe knee valgus in the squat? (38:00)
  • When the hips rise too quickly in the sumo and conventional deadlift, what is the first performance characteristic that you look at? (47:11)
  • Do athletes and general population fitness enthusiasts need to squat ass to grass? (51:48)

Relevant links and further reading:

Transcription

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

 

I think it’s just really hard to get strong, and that’s where people are like, “Oh, this is the game and how it’s played, and I’ve got to get strong enough. No, I’d rather just roll around with lacrosse wall and show how well I can actively internally rotate when I’m in a 90-90 position. That’s adorable. Could you please move aside while the real adults try and actually get strong?”

Jake BolyJake Boly

Welcome to the “Barbend Podcast” where we talk to the smartest athletes, coaches, and minds from around the world of strength. I’m your guest host, Jake Bully, and this podcast is presented by barbend.com.

 

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows are both at the front of the pack leading the fitness industry, and building better standards. Dr. Davidson holds a PhD in exercise physiology, and is an accomplished strength and conditioning coach and author. While Dr. Shallow is a chiropractor, strength coach and traveling presenter.

 

Both of these individuals have brilliant minds when thinking about basic and advanced training concepts. In today’s episode, I take commonly asked questions from BarBend’s Instagram posts, articles and YouTube and have Dr. Davidson and Dr. Shallow answer them with full free reign.

 

This is an incredibly fun episode that covers a variety of training topics and I hope you enjoy it. As always, we’re incredibly thankful that you listen to this podcast so if you haven’t already, be sure to leave a rating and review of the BarBend podcast in your app of choice. Every month we give away a box full of BarBend swag to one of our listeners who leaves a rating and review.

 

What’s going on guys? We are back on the BarBend podcast and today we are joined by Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallow and today’s podcast is going to be slightly different. As opposed to having a conversation that kind of flows, we pulled a bunch of questions from our Instagram page, our YouTube, and comments we get on articles and we are going to let these two answer them.

 

They’re both brilliant in what they do and I’m really curious to see how they answer and if there’s any differences in answers and similarities and without further ado, thank you guys for coming on.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

Yeah, we get only disappoint now, right?

 

Yeah, you know…

After an intro like that, over promised, under delivered. Thanks man, appreciate that.

 

I’m a big fan of having my tires pumped up and then just going flat in the ring, so…

 

Let’s just take away the [inaudible 2:24] on the road.

 

Let’s roll.

 

I need him for an opening act.

Jake BolyJake Boly

All right. The way we’re going to do it is I’m going to draw questions at random. Some of these questions might be a little bit more advanced in nature and some of them might be very simple, answer them however you feel. Obviously if any of you both want to chime in, more than welcome to.

 

We’ll go one at a time. Then obviously, once the first person’s done answering, second person can jump in. We’ll just play it by ear as we go. First one served to you, Pat Davidson.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

All right.

Jake BolyJake Boly

The first question is, do you think sumo deadlifts should be judged in a different category at meets? Why or why not?

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

No, they are within the current rules of powerlifting as it’s written up. There’s nothing stipulating that you cannot do it that way. If you are a great sumo deadlifter and you beat everybody at conventional pulls, then you win.

 

I’m in complete agreement. Pick your deadlift stance that fits your particular strengths and morphology. Then go with that. If you’re disgruntled and you’re a conventional deadlifter, then there’s nothing stopping you from switching to sumo. If you’re weak and get beat by someone who’s stronger than you, then get stronger.

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

Dr. Davidson: You’d almost have to have the same conversation with bench press about standardizing relative grip with the bench. It’s the same thing. It’s like physics versus biomechanics. It’s work times force times distance and just doing more work with the same amount of force or less force by covering less distance or whatever that equation is.

 

Dr. Shallows: People get upset when they lose. “I only lost because this person has this trick up their sleeve.” That’s perfectly legit. I would imagine if baseball players were like, “Aw, this is bullshit. Babe Ruth hit all these home runs.” You can’t bat left-handed? Why not? It’s just a particular strategy. It’s a way that you could accomplish the same task. There’s nothing wrong with it.

 

Dr. Davidson: There’s a deflate-gate joke in there somewhere, I just can’t find it.

 

Dr. Shallows: I’m going to leave that alone [laughs] [inaudible 4:28] your head pop off after the first question.


Fair. That’s one of the most frequent questions you get on any sumo-deadlift article or video that we post. It’s insane actually. You can almost predict exactly what you’re going to get.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

You’d almost have to have the same conversation with bench press about standardizing relative grip with the bench. It’s the same thing. It’s like physics versus biomechanics. It’s work times force times distance and just doing more work with the same amount of force or less force by covering less distance or whatever that equation is.

 

People get upset when they lose. “I only lost because this person has this trick up their sleeve.” That’s perfectly legit. I would imagine if baseball players were like, “Aw, this is bullshit. Babe Ruth hit all these home runs.” You can’t bat left-handed? Why not? It’s just a particular strategy. It’s a way that you could accomplish the same task. There’s nothing wrong with it.

 

There’s a deflate-gate joke in there somewhere, I just can’t find it.

 

I’m going to leave that alone [laughs] [inaudible 4:28] your head pop off after the first question.

 

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

Dr. Davidson is an avid Pat’s fan…

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

 

Yes, I am.

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

 …for anyone who didn’t catch on to that.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

 

We are the Freddy Krueger of sports fans. The more that you hate us and bring negative energy, the stronger that we get.

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

[laughs] That’s honestly fair. I’m not even going to dive into that right now. All right. Next question serving Dr. Shallows. Do you think sumo deadlifts are easier than conventional deadlifts? This is random. I did not mean to pick two sumo questions.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

No. From someone who’s a conventional deadlifter, I’m not the size or shape or relative proportions to do…Sumo deadlift is really hard for me. I have stronger lots to make me a better conventional deadlifter. No, it’s not harder. For some people it might be easier or harder based off of the leverages or the relative strengths, but no.

 

It’s just, “Are you well suited for it or not?” If you are, great. You’ve got this huge advantage it seems like. There are definitely people that don’t look super strong that just crush enormous sumo deadlifts.

 

Then, there are people who unbelievably strong, and their deadlift is disappointing. That’s what people get butt hurt over. It’s not necessarily that it’s better, worse, easier, or harder. It’s just, “Hey if you can do this really well, you’ve got this great ability, rock on. You’re a good powerlifter.”

 

When the discussion goes outside of powerlifting is sumo deadlifting a good idea for other goals? That’s a more interesting discussion in some ways. Just for the sake of powerlifting and whether or not it’s acceptable or easier or it’s just available as an option.

 

If you can excel with that then more power to you. You’re better at that particular sport than other people are.

 

I think also powerlifting is self-regulating in the sense that the same leverages that likely make the majority of good Sumo deadlifters, make them dog shit squatters and bench pressers. Because they’re gonna have these long arms that benefit them in their sumo according to the distance and the way the bar travels, but those same long arms are going to come to a disadvantage when they have to bench press.

 

It’s like if you have like…one of the best sumo dead lifters right now is a kid name Keller Wallop. Keller pulls 953. He also has a 1,000-pound deadlift with just over a 2,000-pound total. That’s not great in the sport of powerlifting. That doesn’t necessarily…

 

He’s a great powerlifter, but when you think of relative numbers that are not great that your total is carried by the third of the lifts. It’s self-regulating in the sense that powerlifting is not just the deadlift. It’s on a deadlift only competition. There are bench and squats.

 

The same thing that might make Ray Williams a really good squatter — his squats are well over a thousand pounds — that relatively wide base of support is going to play to a disadvantage when that has to bend over and pick up a bar.

 

The nice part about the sport is that it does keep some balance when you have to start playing these differences in leverages and morphology and things like that.

 

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

I love that. I love that take and I love your opinion on that too. Next question for Pat Davidson, do you ever employ post-activation potentiation in your programs? Why or why not?

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

I’ve employed that for quite a while. I wrote MASS 2. It uses a lot of concepts that are from PAP. Number one, it’s rare to find anything that seems to improve your ability to produce more force in higher rate of force development activities.

 

It’s like almost any idiot can put a program together that makes people stronger or allows for hypertrophy, but to actually change high-velocity force production is very hard. Like it’s much harder to make someone a faster sprinter, to jump higher, or to throw an implement farther than it is to just move a heavier barbell.

 

That’s generally speaking. Obviously, when you get to the extremes of like the most elite powerlifters adding five pounds to a squat or bench press can be a very daunting task. For the most part, changing things at the high end of the speed continuum is difficult.

 

There is not a lot of evidence, like real peer reviewed research that would support any particular methodology, but there is quite a bit of data that shows how effective post-activation potentiation is.

 

It’s kind of like when you look at the logistics of putting an exercise program together, oftentimes like, “Oh, this thing’s evidence supported.” but from a logistical standpoint, it’s difficult to see where it would fit in from a workout.

 

When you talk about PAP, it’s not that difficult. You do a heavy lift and you follow it up immediately with an explosive activity that’s lighter that’s not that difficult to do. It doesn’t really eat up an excessive amount of time. It really allows for the best of both worlds.

 

We’re able to marry the theoretical information that’s supported from research with practical applications that actually fit nicely into the way that a good solid session could be meshed together.

 

I mean, working in the strength conditioning field and talking a lot about logistics, you have all the various evidence in the world, but if you have to run two sessions in succession with 25 kids in a small weight room and you’re dealing with lots of rugby players.

 

It’s like I don’t know of a more effective method that fits into the logistics of an actual strength-conditioning session than VAP one. Like, “Look, we’re going to do heavy mid-thigh poles and then do box jumps or do one prowler.” It’s like if you have any sort of set up, can accommodate for that.

 

A lot of people, they get lost in the idea of training for sports performance and then training for aesthetics and strength. Like Pat said, it’s two different worlds. When you deal with sports performance, it’s like, yeah, you’d almost be silly not to because it is so accessible and it is so effective.

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

Yeah. I love that. I love that a lot because I love pop as well. That’s what I did my capstone on cheerleaders. Improving their back tucks and their explosiveness off the ground because I was a cheerleader.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

When I was a professor at Springfield college, I feel like I was on seven or eight committees my second year there. I feel like every single one was on post-activation potentiation. I just felt like I was constantly reading the literature in there and it was like, “Man, there is a boatload of research supporting this stuff.”

 

I felt like I did not see enough of the students who were strength and conditioning coaches at that school using it. It was like, “You’re doing your thesis on it. You’re supporting it. Where is it in your programming for your athletes? Let’s put two and two together here.”

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

I guess to follow that up and just go a level deeper. When it comes to coupling exercises together, have you guys seen a pairing that works a little bit better than others? For example, like a back squat with a box jump, or maybe a front squad to a broad jump. What do you guys see with the pairings and what works best?

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

It depends. Sorry. It depends on the specificity of the sport and what planes you need to be strong in for that particular sport. Like in dealing with like rugby players at the collegiate level, hinging movements seem to be more beneficial because they spend the majority of their time in the sport in a lower position than most sports.

 

A lot of people think the deadlift doesn’t have a good carry or isn’t dynamically correspondent to sports. It depends on what sport. In my experience, pairing heavy hindering movements with something a little bit more like some prowler push or something like that was beneficial because that was what emulated the parameters of the sport.

 

I think that has to be taken into consideration. It’s like you’re not just trying to get more powerful to get more powerful. The objective outcome is your numbers. It’s like, yeah, you worry about force output.

 

You can measure it and hurts and all this stuff, but what’s your record like? Did you guys go like, “Oh and 82 last year?” Those are the numbers that matter at the end of the day. When you pair an exercise selected, it’s like, what has the greatest amount of dynamic course wanted to the actual sport?

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

Awesome.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

Yeah, that’s a great answer. For me, I like the French Contrast Method that I originally read from Cal Dietz. It’s funny. I’ve never seen any research that talks specifically about the French Contrast Method, but in his book, “Try Phasic Training,” he talks about how he used that quite a bit with his hockey players at Minnesota.

 

It doesn’t give exactly like you have to do this specific exercise in this vector or plane, but it’s more that you’re going to do your heavy barbell exercise and you’re going to follow that with a sequence of three different explosive activities.

 

The first one would be body weight, the second one would be heavier than body weight, and the third one would be lighter than body weight so that you’re trying to hit everything along like the rate of force development continuum during this. What I’ve done a lot…

 

I tend to like the squat a little bit more as the heavy exercise to prime people, and because I can control tempo a little bit more because it starts at the top and I can focus on the E-centric without having to start it with the up-phase of a deadlift. Typically, I’ll do something like a squat, followed by a body weight jump.

 

Typically, something that would be like a box jump or progressed, like a hurdle jumper, a depth-jumps something along those lines, followed by a weighted jump. We have a lot of Kaiser Equipment. We have the Kaiser Squat Jump.

 

We’re able to quantify how much power on every jump. We can dial it in when we give this person 200 pounds, it peaks their power. When they’re at 150, the power’s less. When they go to 220, the power’s less. We can really dial that in.

 

Then the third one is oftentimes a lightened method jump of having a band hung up on a pull-up bar so that when you jump it’s taking some of your body weight away. It almost feels like you’re jumping on the moon or something like that.

 

Just watching people’s numbers. It’s like that method, I’ve never seen it not shift people in a positive direction for force production at different velocity zones. Not just your heavy stuff, but vertical jump improving, all of the ground context, stuff that’s faster ground context, seem to get dragged right along with that. It’s a nice protocol.

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

Gotcha. That’s awesome. Well, thank you, guys. Dr. Sherlock, question for you. What are your favorite exercises for targeting the vastus lateralis?

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

 

 Targeting lateralis?

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

Yeah. Do you have any specific for outer quad?

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

This is a pretty broad question we get actually.

 

I don’t know to what degree you can isolate. If you put your hip in extension and extend your knee, you’ll take the rectus femoris out of it because you’ll disadvantage it because you’re in hip extension.

 

I know the research on squat width is pretty concrete in the sense that the width of your squat isn’t going to dictate. Knee extension is knee extension. If you go super wide on a leg press and your tibia and your femur create the same amount of relative flexion at the knee, then it’s not going to bias the sweep versus the teardrop or whatever the bro nomenclature is.

 

I’ve read some research on toes in versus toes out being preferential to VMO versus lateralis on the leg extension and aquatic section. To what degree, that matters. Putting tension across fibers of the lateralis, I don’t know.

 

If I’m not mistaken, I want to say toes in his later or toes in his VMO and toes out his lateralis, if I remember correctly, but honestly, I just load a squat past 90 and you’ll likely get the job done. I don’t know. Do you have a better answer to that?

 

I saw something that was comparing. It was basically saying that the squat will preferentially develop the lateralis and medialis, and that lunges will preferentially develop adaptors and that the only thing that nails the rectus femoris is the knee extension.

 

To me, it’s like the squat would probably be the best choice for vastus lateralis, but it’s like one of those questions that to me brings up probably someone that is overthinking and under training. If that’s your primary worry, I’m immediately just thinking you’ve probably never trained that hard or intelligently to see the way that just good, solid, well-rounded programming just brings.

 

It’s like the tide that rises and brings all the ships with it, as opposed to somebody that’s probably trying to pick the fly shit out of the pepper and do all these tiny little exercises that aren’t going to drive much. This is like the, “Just shut up and squat,” kind of answer. Don’t worry about my newsier when we have bigger fish to fry.

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

Good. Moving on back to Davidson. Do you have any alternatives for building strong glutes besides squatting and hip thrusts that you love?

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

Deadlifting, sprinting. Probably sprinting is one of the best ones. I’ve never seen really fast people or people that do a lot of track and field have bad glutes. It’s like track squats sort of thing. Also, distribution of where your weight is on your feet is probably a big one.

 

I’m constantly trying to get people to actually squat their squat and not hinge their squat up. Most of the time I just see people compressing their back and deadlifting their squats up, and it’s like, “Well, you didn’t really do any squats. You said you did three sets of squats and three sets of deadlifts, I just saw six sets of deadlifts.”

 

If I can get someone to actually squat deep and then come out of that and their body looks like it’s in an elevator shaft, rather than the body folding and that whole thing. Usually, people really feel their glutes working and also people just always forget about the leg press.

 

If you keep your foot nice and flat, you keep your thighs tracking over the feet and you go full range on a leg press. Very few things are going to recruit more total muscle mass and lead to greater total metabolic output of the lower extremity than that.

 

Also, just a well-executed split squat and lunges. Again, I see most people do lunges and they fold and it’s basically like a moving deadlift again. If people squat their squats and squat their split squats and do heavy leg press and sprint, I’m pretty sure we’ll put some butts on people.

 

There’s no such thing as stubborn muscle groups, just stubborn people. Look there’s tension and there’s fibrous right? Just put fucking tension across fibrous, it’s not that hard. It’s no different than growing pecs or lats. Know origin, know insertion, know action, know how to apply load through that muscle action as it moves from origin insertion it would be sweet.

 

It’s not splitting the atom. You have a pelvis that’s stable that would probably help. You have a core that can primarily stabilize your pelvis so you can actually put that pelvis from posterior to anterior. Which is one of the great things about sprinting that it does really well and that’s why the glutes are…like sprinter butt, that’s a thing.

 

They’re just moving their pelvis from this place back here to that place over there. That’s basically what the glute max does. I mean, not to mention, it is the largest muscle in our body. Behind that, strengthening the glute med would help if you’re going for an overall aesthetic.

 

It’s like the glute med is 50 percent the size of the glute max. The glute max is the largest muscle in our body, and this thing is half the size of it. We had to train that properly. If you want a disadvantage the glute max that shows that adduction in internal rotation will prioritize the glute med even though the posterior fibers are externally rotated having stable hips, stable pelvis, and then just putting tension across fibers.

 

I don’t really like the hip thrust. I don’t think the ASIS is a weight-bearing joint, basically an orthopedic [inaudible 21:05] in which your body can manage sheer at the SI joint, yeah, hip hinging. If you can fix the profile on something like a reverse hyper then you can fix a resistance profile, something like reverse hyper, how that maps the strength curve.

 

Something like that’s effective. Unilateral movements are really effective because, again, all we’re doing is just moving that pelvis from posterior to anterior, posterior to anterior. 45-degree low back extension, a lot of people messed up.

 

There’s an upper fiber of the glute, which is the primary muscle mass of the glute max, but also there’s a lower fiber. The lower fiber acts as an adductor. A lot of people miss that.

 

A lot of people in lower body composition sports, they call like, “I’m holding a lot of water.” “No, you’re not. You just have a muscle there because you don’t realize that the lower fiber of the glute max is an adductor. You just have a trained tension across those fibers.”

 

It’s more or less just an imposition on someone’s understanding of muscle anatomy as a whole. A lot of people just have a big misunderstanding because there’s a lot of noise-based around training that muscle group in isolation.

 

I was going to ask you do you know what one of the questions that were in here that I actually threw out was hip thrust. Do you think they’re over-rated or under-rated? From what you’ve just said, I think that’s over-rated.

 

Dr. Shallows: 100 percent in my opinion anyways.

Jake BolyJake Boly

Why is that?

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

I don’t use the exercise personally or with anybody. I do exercises that involve bridging the hips, but I have them executed in a very different manner essentially like I’m trying to bring the ischial tuberosity on the pelvis towards the posterior neck of the femur and keep it there.

 

That’s true hip extension. Because most of the time when I see people just thrust their hips through space, they’re just going to be driving their pelvis. The ischial tuberosity is the big bone on the backside of the pelvis. It’s where your hamstring connects.

 

If you push directly into the middle of your butt, you would feel a bone there eventually. Essentially, it’s almost like I got a leg bone that’s trying to move. I’m trying to move the leg bone backward and I’m trying to keep the back of the pelvis there. Most of the time I see people try to push their pelvis forward and they just simply lose their pelvis in space.

 

It’s almost like the relationship between the two bones never changes. Whereas, I want to keep this here and then move this on top of it. Without that happening, I’ve never seen someone do a loaded hip thrust and demonstrate what I’m looking for.

 

It’s possible to do effective bridges that truly target the glute max, but I don’t think that there’ll ever be things that are done with a significantly heavy barbell that’s stacked on your hips. I don’t think that’s anything that I particularly want to add to the system anyways.

 

I don’t hate the concept of a hip bridge. I would just get to the end goal of it through different means than what people are currently using in a widespread manner across the exercise scene.

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

Gotcha. Dr. Shallow, this one is for you. Is a long one. When doing your first compound movement of the day with the most energy demanding sets, should you do absolutely nothing in between your sets, or is it OK to do some passive mobility and strength work depending on that it doesn’t take away from your main working sets? What is your go-to logic here?

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

I don’t like the wording of that because mobility to a certain degree if you look at research, can be a hindrance and force output, but a lot of the methodologies and the research that proves that are not real-world applicable.

 

I’m not going to hold a modified hurdler stretch for a minute and a half and then go into a vertical jump. That’s probably a shitty way to get a vertical jump and probably a good way to tear my fucking hamstring, but strength is very much positionally related.

 

If you’re struggling based on whatever perception to get into a good position and all the compound movements, say like a squat, and you want to put in some sort of…I prefer stability work over mobility work, which is something that we might see it through a different lens on.

 

An ability of a muscle to resist force is different than a muscle’s ability to exert force, roughly speaking. I think it’s OK in early stages where, if I’m warming up on an empty bar, the big takeaway would integrate any sort of quote-unquote corrective, whatever you want to call it, stuff in early stages, but don’t do it as a separate thing.

 

It’s all just a scale of dynamics, a scale of input on your nervous system, something like that, or stretching can be very positive and something like a max effort squat could be very active. I look at it almost like a Baton pass where your warm-up or your activation or whatever you want to call it, that’s passing the Baton to your workout.

 

The goal is to get better at squatting, and the goal is to get better at a single leg RDL, or you get better at foam-rolling or whatever. If you have a theory retested against the objective outcome.

 

It’s like, if my calves are tight if I stretch my calves and then I squat and I don’t have a hip shift anymore because I’m leaning away from that limited dorsal flexion in that opposite hip or on that opposite ankle, then it’s like I don’t care as long as I’m getting the desired outcome against the objective outcome, which is a squat.

 

There’s a lot of people that get dogmatic around their movement preparation strategies or practices where it’s like, “I don’t care if anyone’s a professional at warming up.” Right. I think it’s, “If it helps improve your perception and relative position for that compound movement. Sure. Because guess what, my…”

 

If I have a hip shift due to a decrease in dorsiflexion in one of my ankles, that’ll set to a detriment my top end working that squat greater than any sort of…Look, stretching your calves causes you so much fatigue. That it’s like 20 kilos off your top set. It’s like you have way bigger fish to fry. That’s the way I look at it.

 

Whatever you’re going to do, fine, do it. Understanding that scale of dynamics that don’t go super passive static stretching into a heavy dynamic compound load, bridge the gap with just things that have a little bit higher input.

 

To me, those things are usually unilateral movements testing our ability to exert force through some muscles through the hip and swine. Then if you’re doing that integrated against the thing that cares about. For instance, don’t just do this 45-minute warm-up thing on the turf area at your 24-hour fitness, and then go to a squat rack.

 

Be very selective in the interventions that you’re going to apply for this particular exercise. Go to the damn squat rack, squat the empty bar. Then go off into your myriad of drills you want to do between the empty bar and 95 pounds. “How do you feel?” “Good.” “Oh, you feel great, sweet. Then stop doing them. Go 135, 195, 225 and onward.”

 

“Oh, get that ankle still bugging me.” “So, you want to do something between 95 and 135, great. Go ahead,” but then there’s a point where the Baton is passed and the workout is started. Then the warming up stuff is done.

 

Sometimes that transition period might be longer. You get off that plane from Slovenia. He’s not going to be two-sets to a top max. It might take a little bit longer, but if you’re up on your feet. You’re feeling good, then save it. If you don’t need to do it, don’t do it.

 

I think a lot of people miss that ability to be adaptive based off how they feel. It’s like, “Oh no, coach said I had to do more my foam roll and stuff,” and it’s like, “Look, if you feel good, scrap it because it’s all about how you feel on the bar.” Right. I think that’s a workaround way of answering the question.

Jake BolyJake Boly

Gotcha. If I remember correctly, the context was somebody was asking about warming up for the bench press and doing band tears in between. Work like that, that they felt like got them into position or something if I remember correctly in the context of which this question was asked.

 

I feel like you might event. You did answer that, but it was a poorly worded question to begin with, probably with a little bit of misleading interpretation of how they took the work.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

 

In that specific case of bands and strengthening and then again, you get into resistance profile and strength. If it feels good, do it, man. I feel like that guy may have already had his answer in his question, so thumbs up because he sounds like he’s going to keep doing what he wants to do anyways.

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

Fair enough.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

I hate the word mobility. I just think it’s a garbage term. All it means is that you have the ability to move. Doesn’t tell me anything. I’m always looking at, “Let me actually measure you on a table. Let me see what range of motion your joints actually possess.”

 

If you have clear red flags from certain joints that are nowhere near human norms for a range of motion, it indicates to me that you do not possess the ability to execute certain movements biomechanically properly. I could try to coach you or come up with drills for you from now until the cows come home.

 

Either I’m able to unlock this motion and give you the ability to have human norms for a range of motion, for ankle, shoulder, hip, knee, whatever, or not. I have to make that determination first. Like, do you have the ability? Do you right now, lack human norms for motion at this joint? Can I create a drill that gives you back human norms?

 

If I can, great. That drill’s probably a good activity for you to do, prior to doing something that would require that specific range of motion to be able to execute. Like if someone has zero degrees of ankle dorsiflexion and they want to do full depth squatting, you can’t. I’m sorry.

 

You’re a nice person and everything. You just physically cannot do this activity. If I can conjure up a drill that for you gives you this motion back, and I can measure it and see that now you possess 10 degrees of ankle dorsiflexion that’s sufficient for full range squatting, by all means, let’s learn how to squat properly and now train the squat.

 

I just look at things from the perspective of like, step number one, what is the task and trying to accomplish? What motions from joints around your body do you need to complete this task as close to optimal as possible? Are there giant red flags of, on your measurements that would contraindicate your ability to do this activity?

 

If yes, can we create drills that give you those motions? If we can give you drills that give you back those motions, it doesn’t mean you know how to do the task properly. It just gives you entry into motor learning 101 for the task. Now I have to coach you on how to do this task.

 

Now the cool thing is if this is a task whose prerequisite is to have certain ranges of motion, and you’re doing the task properly, guess what? You no longer need mobility work in the future going forward because the task itself is the mobility work.

 

You should hold onto those ranges of motion if you’re doing this properly. Your brain should remember these things and have a dominant response that executes the task with those joints moving a certain amount of degrees.

 

To me, the people that I see always doing extreme amounts of mobility work are usually the people that already possessed the prerequisite ranges of motion. They’re good at demonstrating flexibility. They like doing flexibility. They like to show off. It makes them feel good.

 

It’s like you already have what it takes. Just do the goddamn thing and train it. If you do that now, tell me what your goals are. Are your goals to just be the mobility king? Because you already have that, but you’re verbally telling me that your goal is something else.

 

Your goal is to squat more, deadlift more, whatever the hell it is, and you’re not following the systematic path towards that, which you’re vocalizing is your goal. Either what you’re telling me is not what you feel, or your awareness about what the path is to this is off.

 

I think that the question relates more towards like that primarily is the discussion point. Like, “Is this someone that is just trying to demonstrate that they’re…?” Some people assume that they think that they’re going to look smart if they’re doing all these mobility drills. Who cares? What do you want?

 

It’s probably not to be, like you said, the best at warming up. I feel like Kenny Powers with that answer.

 

Dr. Shallows: I think it’s just hard to get strong, and that’s where people are like, “Oh, this is the game, and now let’s play it, and I’ve got to get stronger.” Now it’s like, “No. I’d rather just roll around with across roll and show how well I can actively internally rotate when I’m in a 90-90 position.

 

“That’s adorable. Could you please move aside while the real adults try and actually get strong?” They get. It’s like you can’t out corrective exercise, bad exercise. To Pat’s point about, look, you now have the base level code in which to perform this skill properly. You have the requisite range of motion.

 

It does not mean you are then guaranteed and warranted, then license the ability to perform this exercise properly, but you can’t single leg RDL. You’re way too good squat mechanics. It’s like you have to know how to squat. You can do that and it can prove some functional prerequisites.

 

It’s the hip stability or ankle dorsiflexion or whatever, but when the rubber hits the road, you have to put all these moving parts together in series and improper timing and execute the damn thing. I just think the execution of the damn thing is the hard part. People are like, “Oh, I got to do all that. Oh, that looks heavy. I’m just going to keep folding and rolling.

 

 

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

Got it. Next question. What are your favorite three exercises for training in the transverse plane of motion?

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

Someone’s coming to me first.

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

Hell yeah, it’s coming to you first.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

Probably my biggest mentor is Bill Hartman. He is of the belief that there is only a transverse plane. That there is not a sagittal plane or a frontal plan that everything takes place in the transverse plane.

 

There’s only IRR and ER. That which you observe and think is flexion and abduction is just another representation of external rosy rotation. That which you observe as extension and abduction is just another representation of internal rotation.

 

I’m heavily biased because I just think that this is the dude. You know what I mean? I think if anyone truly understands motion, that’s my guy. It’s always painful for me to say things along the lines of this sagittal plane drill or this frontal plane drill because I am in his camp.

 

There’s no such thing as frontal or sagittal, everything is an expression of transverse. I also respect the fact that that way’s forward and that way’s sideways and this is twisting. I’ll play along with the game.

 

It was one of my favorite three transverse plane exercises. I like to hit balls. I’ve always liked baseball. I like golf. I like to just smash things with clubs. To me, that’s the only transverse thing as an activity.

 

When I think about that, from a weight room perspective, I think the transverse plane is largely like you’re throwing plane. It’s like creating that explosion. I think of it as like medicine ball throws, things like chops lifts, punching. To me, from what do we really do in the weight room that’s truly transverse?

 

It’s like market, is like training rotational athletes. We’re going to do med ball throws. We’re going to do chops lifts. We’re going to do those kinds of things. I have some specific setups that I like for med ball throws over some other setups. Generally speaking, throw things and try to smash things. That to me is real transverse plane training.

I agree 100 percent with the bill thing. This means everything exists in the rotational plane. Whether it’s locally at muscles that I think are probably the most important and underutilized. That’s like muscles that have a transverse orientation.

 

Don’t tell me you have a weak rotator cuff, when gravity goes this way and the infraspinatus goes this way. Don’t tell me your piriformis is weak, and that’s why you’re applying bands. First off, the bands don’t really make sense from adding resistance to striking muscle anyways.

 

Aside from that, the performance goes like that. Or you have a weak core. It’s like your transverse abdominis goes like that. To me, I’m of the similar thought process that everything is a movement in the transverse plane.

 

For me, I just look at function. “Function” is a bastardized term. For me, function is how muscles behave when you walk and breathe. It’s some sort of iteration. I really like the Bulgarian split squat. I really like the rear-foot elevated split squat.

 

To double down on movement or training in the transverse plane, I’ll just throw a dumbbell in the opposite hand of the stance leg. Whoa. That’s a whole lot of a force through the rotational plane that I have to resist. That’s one.

 

A landline press. If you load in gait cycles, if I’m pressing with my right hand and I have my left foot forward, it’s opposite hip, opposite shoulder. There’s a huge amount of rotation or counter-rotation force in that exercise.

 

Basically, anything that mimics gate-cycle movement is going to be an exercise in the transverse plane. That’s my preference when it comes to that. I know that was only two. Carries. Do a unilateral carry, or do a bilateral carry. Every time you take a step forward and the opposite shoulder rotates to the opposite hip, that’s going to be rotation.

 

I think everything should be looked at in that way to a certain degree. You can ascribe to the idea that, look, maybe squatting and dead lifting…I understand that’s forward and that’s to the side. Sometimes a power lifter struggles with a walkout because it’s like, [laughs] “We need to actually step out to the side.” OK, that’s fine. Perhaps they are more akin to just this particular pattern.

 

For me, anything that derives true function of the hips, shoulders, and spine, which is usually how we organize movement through gait cycle. Then we just load that with some sort of unilateral load that causes people to be unstable through a plane of rotation rather than lateral flexion, if that makes sense.

Jake BolyJake Boly

Totally. You guys nailed that. Honestly, that’s a lot of info. I think that people can take a lot out of that. Next question we got…

 

Moving on.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

 I can’t wait to see what the one was.

Jake BolyJake Boly

This is for you, Dr. Shallow.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

 Bring it on.

Jake BolyJake Boly

What is your favorite tool or exercise for fixing severe knee valgus in the squat?

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

Tempo. It’s probably tempo. Spend more time in the position that seems to be bothersome. There’s a weird side conversation going on of like, “Oh, it’s the glute meat.” “No, it’s the adaptor pulling it in. It’s a sign of hip stability if it goes in below 90 because the piriformis, which is rolling or whatever.” I don’t know. The knee joint likes to do this.

 

If I’m at a point where it’s like this, I want it to do that. Spending more time in that position is going to help better gain an acuity or an awareness of that knee, whether or not it tracks in or out. I don’t think there’s much more to it than that.

 

I’ll use a mirror, look in the mirror. Great. Now we’re going to take the mirror away. Now you need to adhere this to a longer term memory. Then I’ll film it and be like, “Hey, so rep three felt really good? Great. What did you do in rep three? Here watch. Watch rep three. OK, great.”

 

I think for me the best tool is time. Because time is probably going to solidify that better than any single like, whatever the hell or banded tactical key or anything like that.

 

I coach a lot from the feet. Particularly with squatting. I always have people try to just stand and find their feet and be like, “Hey, is there any particular part of your foot that you don’t feel that much weight on? Or do you feel more in one particular area?”

 

I love that with time, because I do the same thing. I’ve got a playbook of rules that I follow. One of those rules is start static before going dynamic. Static, to me is the ultimate of stopping time as best I possibly can then I’ll just add velocity over time.

 

You can’t learn anything if you’re going fast. Because you can’t feel things if you’re going fast. If the slower you go, the more that you can feel. Oftentimes, just have people really pay attention to their feet.

 

We’re going to go really slow and at a certain point I’m like, “Hey, I want you to maintain that same level of foot contact. Everything that you felt at the top, you should be able to feel now.” I have other drills that I do on the ground too with people with finding their feet and moving their body.

 

They start to notice trends of like, “Oh yeah, I really lose this part of my foot when I try to do this activity.” It’s like, “Oh, yeah. OK, when you lose that part of your foot, does it feel different doing that movement versus when you keep that part of the foot?”

 

And like, “Oh, yeah. When I have my whole foot on the ground, yeah, I feel like I’m using my butt more or something along those lines.” I’m of the same point. I almost don’t care about which specific muscle.

 

Generally speaking, when I’m watching a tape placed in front of me, I try to give people mental pictures that they can try to think of. I’m always coaching the squat from the leg and the foot and the ankle by telling people about, “Hey, you ever hit a nail into a piece of wood? How would you want to hit it with a hammer? You’d want to hit it straight down.

 

“How would you want to hold the nail? You wouldn’t want to hold it off to the side. You would want it to go straight down into the wood. How would the wood be? The wood wouldn’t be lopsided. You want to level piece of wood that you hold a nail straight up and down into and you hit it with the hammer straight down into the top of the nail. The femur is the hammer, the tibia is the nail and the wood is basically the ankle and the foot.”

 

Giving people that picture oftentimes really helps them and it’s like, “Hey, let’s just start from the ground up. Let’s make sure that our base is level and that you don’t have a piece of wood you’re trying to hit a nail into that’s off kilter.”

 

From there, people can begin to understand that stuff. That to me is like the art of coaching versus all of whatever is going on in the background mechanistically in terms of levers, pulleys, muscles, and that stuff.

Jake BolyJake Boly

I love that. I love all that take. Essentially for a lot of knee valgus issues, a lot of it comes down to coaching and just body awareness of your own joints to time and space?

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

Yeah.

Jake BolyJake Boly

I mean, there could be imbalance…

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

Yeah. There’s morphological considerations you get like low Q-Angle and is the knee really going in outside of an anatomical normal based off that person’s morphology. That’s another conversation and you can’t have the conversation.

 

If you look at high-level power lifters, there is somewhat of a moment of the knees twitching in at depth greater than 90 degrees. You could have the conversation, but again, it’s a lot of dollars. Like most people are stepping over $100 bill to try to pick up quarters here.

 

It’s like, let’s just nail the basics first, and when we’re knocking down the door of a world record, we need to have these more nuanced conversations we can do that. Frankly, the people that need to hear that probably aren’t listening to this podcast.

 

One piece when I think of knees, and I think of feet and I think of hips typically and it’s like, what strategy is this person trying to accomplish? To me a squat is something you need to increase dorsiflexion. You need the knees to go forward.

 

Oftentimes, we have this cue that just like permeates through the world of coaching which is like always pushing us, knees out, knees out, knees out, knees out. The human-gait cycle will tell you everything you ever need to know. When you hit the ground you’re hitting it with the outside edge of your heel.

 

The motion of your ankle is that you’re going to be dorsiflexing and pronating as you load over your foot more and more, and more. Then you’ll alternately reach your greatest point of being pronated and dorsiflexed, and that’s your point of push off.

 

If you’re looking at a squat, at the top, that’d basically be where your foot is hitting the ground. As you descend, it would be like as you’re stepping over your foot if you were walking. You need dorsiflexion, and if you’re getting dorsiflexion, dorsiflexion couples with pronation.

 

Everybody is terrified of pronation. “Oh my God, you pronated like your body is going to explode, and the world is going to end.” We’ve come to this enormous fear of this motion that’s coupled with dorsiflexion.

 

If you’re going to be able to have your knees go forward, to actually bring your hips down in a position that’s actually a squat, and not have your knees collapse, you need to be able to pronate your foot.

 

When people walk, not all humans have their knees crash into their other knees while they’re pronating. I feel like I say this to people and they’re like, “You’re telling me that when you’re coaching a squat, you have people pronate their feet? You’re actively telling them to?”

 

I’m like, “Yes. I cue people to pronate their feet, as they’re descending, because that’s going to allow them to dorsiflex their ankle.” They’re like, “You’re killing people’s knees.” When did I say that I want the knee to collapse inward? I don’t want that. Again, I want a hammer hitting a nail going into a piece of wood.

 

I want this alignment, but the only way I’m going to get that in a squat is if I create dorsiflexion. The only way I’m going to get dorsiflexion is if it couples with pronation at the same time. I’m sure someone is going to have a conniption fit upon hearing this and completely misinterpret it. By all means, please do, enjoy your conniption fit.

Jake BolyJake Boly

Got it. [laughs] Let’s move on to the explanation.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

I can’t even tell you how many times that’s been a thing though.

 

To me, that’s function. It’s how muscles and bones operate when we’re walk and breathe. You want to talk hip mechanics look at sprint coaches, look at gait cycle. That’s…

 

OK, are you going to throw this one out? Is this one mine?

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

 Let’s go. [laughs] If someone is having trouble achieving depth in their squat…Yeah, let’s move on.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

 

It’s 2019.

Jake BolyJake Boly

We’re moving on.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

Pronate!

 

There we go, problem solved.

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

I knew there was going to be some in here, where I was going to be like, this is dumb guys.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

That was a quick one.

 

I’m glad that wasn’t up there with a [inaudible 48:32] questions, like we’re still having this conversation.

Jake BolyJake Boly

I think this one would actually be a good conversation. This gets thrown around a lot on Instagram without a full understanding of what might actually be going on. When the hips rise too quickly in the deadlift, whether be sumo or conventional, what is the first performance characteristic that you look at?

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

Were your hips too low to start? Are they rising to a position that makes them mechanically advantageous to actually initiate the lift, I don’t think you need to go right to, “I’ve blocked poles or deficits or overload my erectors.” Maybe that’s the exact position that they should be starting in.

 

Usually the Occam’s razor approach, the simplest answer is the right answer. Your hips are rising to a point which they can actually start exerting more force. Maybe that’s the position you should be starting your deadlift in. [inaudible 49:20] makes squats more squat-y again. [laughs]

 

The larger part, some people might actually try and squat their deadlift, and then they try and deadlift their squats. You see this especially a lot with beginner lifters who adopt more A-Frame style deadlift.

 

They try to find more structural, like widening their base of support. Their knees aren’t under their ankles or under their hips, or over their ankles and under their hips. Then you start to see their hips rise.

 

First, don’t squat your deadlift. It’s not a hands-down squat. If your hips rise first maybe that’s the exact position they should be in to start the lift.

Jake BolyJake Boly

Gotcha. Do you have anything to add, Dr. Davidson?

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

When I see people miss a lot of lifts, I think there’s a pattern of compensation that they go into or just failure. Generally speaking, I see more people fall into greater positions, like plantar flexion, at the level of the ankle when you see weird stuff go on.

 

If you shoot the hips up like that, it’s probably going to de-dorsiflex you, AKA increase plantar flexion where it’s like, that’s the only strategy that that brain knows to be in. It doesn’t know how to truly know how to get into a position of dorsiflexion, pronation, internal rotation, adduction, extension as it’s mechanistic driving force.

 

It knows how to flex, abduct, externally rotate, plantar flex, and supinate. To me, the extension, internal rotation, adduction, dorsiflexion, pronation, as a coupled strategy is basically how you squeeze things. It’s a compression strategy. Versus the other one is an expansion strategy. It’s how you blow out something.

 

A lot of people that are novices or weak, they don’t really know how to compress. They just fall into this pattern of they can’t compress so they try some other thing. Again, it’s still what you’re saying because it’s still a path of least resistance, in terms of the brain solving a problem.

 

I don’t know how to do it this way, so I’m going to go with this alternate strategy. To me, I always just look at biological organisms are a representation of the movement strategy of physics. Physics when you really break it down, there’s two primary strategies.

 

There is withdrawal and there is moving toward something. There’s compression and there’s expansion. At every possible level, gravity is just something that compresses and brings things together. Electromagnetism has repulsion capabilities.

 

You only have one of two strategies that you can go to for movement, and one of them is an attractor and one of them is a repulsive one. A lot of deadlifts are just really repulsive, that are ugly and break down. So people are going to that particular strategy.

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

I think we have time for one more question. The last question, we’re going to throw that one out because that’s going to get dicey. Throw that one out. I’m trying to find a good one to end on here, you’d be surprised too with the kind of questions we get in.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

 

I don’t know if I would, I’ve been living in the Internet for a while now.

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

This one will be a good one, and I actually don’t know how you guys are going to answer this. Does everyone, now this includes everyone so we can separate and differentiate between…

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

[laughs] Yeah, it’s a pretty good deal.

 

We definitely don’t.

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

How about this, let’s break it down into two different categories. We’ll say gen pop and then athletes. Does every athlete need to squat ass-to-grass in back squats, and do general population need to squat ass-to-grass in back squats?

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

He was right, no.

 

I wouldn’t even say no, I would give context and say that not everyone even has to squat. Defining function is how we move, we walk, and breathe. Again, put the baby up with 300 bones and a head that’s a third the size of its body.

 

Or the dude in Thailand sitting Astor grass Hacket Darts playing dice on the side of the road, that is not proof of concept of deep squat is good for anything. For athletes, “Kyrie hit that shot or Kawhi hit that shot. He was like in a full squat. I think that’s great.” That shot was going in whether or not he was sitting in a full squat or not. That’s nothing to do with it.

 

Athletes, definitely not. Go ahead full depth squat NHL Hockey player and deal with the ramifications of probably 45 percent of those guys having a femoroacetabular impingement.

 

Have fun. Have fun putting a nine-million-dollar asset on the shelf because you were so hard-headed. Because, “Oh, the squat is the king of all exercise”. That’s stupid. Mike Boyle hasn’t squatted one of his hockey players, I’m sure of it, in 15 or 20 years. Maybe longer, if ever.

 

General population, no. To go on what’s functional, I love the starting strength. They put the guy on the toilet. Look, if you’re taking more shits than you are steps in a day. You have very few days left on this earth. [laughs] You have anemic dysentery and you’re going to die.

 

[laughs]

 

Get really good at putting one foot in front of the other. No, like it’s so silly. I can’t even argue with these people anymore. “Look, you want to do it, go for it. You want to squat…” Karen from accounting ass-to-grass. Sweet.

 

If she can do it and she can maintain that position. She has like the mobility or whatever. Go for it, man. Is it goal-specific to what she wants? Probably not. I think there’s a dogmatizing built throughout squatting.

 

Hopefully, this information gets out there and its better information that people will stop these silly conversations so athletes know, and gen pop know.

 

I agree completely. I’ll just add my little nuggets to this. What is the person’s goal? Again, you get them nowadays, but like almost no general population client’s goal is to be a great squatter and to add as much weight to the squat as possible. They’re usually looking for some kind of aesthetic goal.

 

You do not need to squat to look better aesthetically. There are a million other tools that you can use that will promote the acquisition of more lean tissue. The kitchen is always going be the place where we’re going to have to go in terms of losing body fat. The idea that the squat is essential to drive people towards their goals is unfounded.

 

It’s like the muscles don’t care how it is that the tension got put on them to be able to create adaptations, to lead to a protein-synthesis response, and to add lean body mass. It really is crazy. I spend so much time putting people on machines. It’s funny because the rate that I charge in Manhattan is ludicrous to put people on chest-supported rows and leg presses.

 

It’s a better choice than oftentimes free weights. I’m going to keep this person healthy for the long run. The majority of general population clients, I don’t even think the squat’s a great exercise even if they can do it. Psychologically, it scares the shit out of them to have that much weight on their back.

 

The leg press at least I can actually train their legs to the point where their legs are pretty close to failure. As soon as they go heavy one time and they get sore squatting, they think they’re injured. Now it’s this whole psychosocial game of trying to re-introduce this exercise. Is it even worth it? It doesn’t even make a damn difference.

 

Let’s take a look at even the great basketball players. When you see their Instagram videos of them squatting, just don’t squat. It’s the ugliest squats that have ever been posted on the Internet. Whoever coached it that way should probably be in the Bane “Batman” movie where they’re being tried by the scarecrow psychologist. They have to walk out on the ice until they fall through.

 

That should be the punishment for anybody who coached that exercise that way.

 

All I can think about is that Lebron video in LA.

Jake BolyJake Boly

 I was just about to bring that up.

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

What was it? A 38-inch block squat or something like that? He was pulling to the right because he had a…

 

[crosstalk]

 

I may or may not have been alluding to that video without specifically going with the name.

 

[crosstalk]

 

…from Brooklyn. I don’t give a shit.

 

He was pulling to the right because he had $130 million in his back pocket. He didn’t give a fuck either. He’s not draining the clutch-fucking free throws because he’s good or not good at squatting.

 

It’s like [inaudible 58:29] weight-strength coach always said, “Look. My job is make sure John doesn’t trip over fucking dumbbells in the weight room.” You’re not going to make an athlete like that in this world like that better. It’s silly.

Yes. Does everyone know?

Jake BolyJake Boly

Yeah

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

 

It’s if you are powerlifter, you need to back squat. If you are any other human on the planet, you do not need to back squat.

Jake BolyJake Boly

Awesome. I love that, and I think, hopefully, people will take something out of that and hopefully apply it to other honest exercise especially with the barbell and some of the dogma that comes around with it.

 

We are out of time. A major thank you to Dr. Pat Davidson, Dr. Jordan Shallow for coming in to the Barbend office here in Brooklyn. Before we head out, I would love for you guys to drop some plugs, obviously drop down their contact info in the description of this article itself, but where can people find you?

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

You can find me on Instagram. I’m @dr.patdavidson. If you go in there, my bio link has pretty much everything you could need to find further information on me. I’ve got “Rethinking the Big Patterns”. It’s a seminar that is continuing and ongoing.

 

I’m finishing up the book for that as well, which I’m hoping would be a big deal. I’m really looking forward to that ultimately being finished and out there.

 

Awesome. Go to Pat’s Power Hour as well. Come on, I’m going to be your company man?

 

I’m brutal at this stuff.

 

No, it’s all right, I got you.

 

Go to my Instagram and then click on follow, and go to Pat and click on his Power Hour and sign up for that. I’m @the_muscle_doc on Instagram. Seminars next year. Same kind of deal. We’re doing a handful international…

 

 

…New Zealand, Australia, UK, Canada, California, and all at [inaudible 60:18] .

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

Awesome. Thank you again, guys. Hopefully we can do this again when you’re all back in town…

Dr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan ShallowsDr. Pat Davidson and Dr. Jordan Shallows

 

I’d love to.

Jake BolyJake Boly

 

 …and we will see you guys later.

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